Mindset & Money Mastery for Photographers with Karinda K.
Struggling to make real money with your portrait photography business? Tired of feeling like a "starving artist" and ready to build a thriving, profitable brand without burnout?
Welcome to the Your Magic Year Podcast with Karinda K. — where photographers learn how to simplify their business, master in-person sales, and confidently sell wall art that clients love (and actually buy).
Each week, Karinda shares practical strategies, money mindset shifts, and proven sales techniques that helped her grow a multi-six-figure photography business—while working less and living more. You'll discover how to elevate your client experience, price for profit, and attract clients who are eager to invest in your art.
Whether you're a portrait photographer, pet photographer, wedding photographer, or somewhere in between—this show is your go-to resource for building a sustainable, high-impact photography business that reflects your values.
Join Karinda K., an equine photographer with over a decade of experience, as she helps you go from stuck and overwhelmed to confident CEO.
Mindset & Money Mastery for Photographers with Karinda K.
84. From Digitals to $2,000+ Sales: A Photographer's Evolution with Rob Faber
What if you could quadruple your photography income—while cutting your session count in half?
In this eye-opening episode, photographer and educator Rob Faber shares how he transformed his business from a high-volume, low-return hustle into a streamlined, profitable model. Once shooting 120 sessions a year while working full-time as a teacher, Rob was charging around $500 per shoot-and-burn session… until he realized something wasn’t adding up.
After switching to a product-based sales approach, Rob’s average client investment jumped to $1,800–$2,200—while he dramatically reduced his workload. Even more shocking? About 75% of his former digital-only clients never downloaded their photos, revealing a powerful truth about perceived value and client experience.
Rob brings a unique perspective as both a photographer and a teacher, drawing powerful connections between educating students and guiding photography clients. His approach to authentic selling, adapting to different client communication styles, and leading with value offers practical insight for photographers at every stage.
Whether you're feeling stuck in the shoot-and-burn cycle, juggling photography with another job, or simply want to boost your income without burning out, this conversation is packed with actionable strategies and fresh perspective.
Tune in now, then join our free Facebook group Photography Business Tune-Up with Karinda K to connect with other photographers and keep the momentum going.
Meet Rob Faber
Rob Faber is a portrait photographer with over 15 years of experience capturing life’s most meaningful moments. Based in Northern Connecticut and serving Western Massachusetts, Rob specializes in creating timeless portraits with a personalized touch—offering both indoor and outdoor sessions throughout towns like Suffield, Simsbury, Avon, Longmeadow, and beyond.
Known for his high-end retouching, tailored service, and commitment to delivering an unforgettable client experience, Rob blends technical expertise with a warm, approachable style that puts families at ease in front of the camera. His mission is simple: to help clients not only love their images, but value them for years to come.
Explore his portfolio at www.robfaberphotography.com and follow along on Instagram at @robfaberphotography.
Connect with Karinda!
- Ready to Sell More Wall Art? Join us in Your Magic Year to Sell More Wall Art
- Website
- Photography Business Tune-Up with Karinda K. - Free Facebook Group
- IG @Masteryourmindmoney
Thanks for listening!
Welcome to Mindset and Money Mastery for Photographers the podcast. We help overwhelmed photographers make more money while simplifying their business by mastering their you guessed it mindset and money. Tune in each week for practical and actionable tips to take your photography business up a notch. Let's dive right in.
Speaker 2:Okay, so today on the podcast, we have Rob. Rob is one of my former coaching clients and he has done amazing things with his business. He has done an incredible job building a network in his community and connections with a lot of people, which I think is really amazing, and he is just always, I feel, like putting himself out there, showing up for his business, putting the work in, which I think tells a lot about his work ethic and his determination towards his business. So, rob, why don't you introduce yourself to everyone?
Speaker 3:Sure, thank you for that. Yeah, I'm Rob, located on the East Coast. I'm in Northern Connecticut and I have been doing photography, I would say picked up a camera. It's only been about probably about 20 years, business wise. I started my business back in 2017, when I started taking it a little more seriously and for about a year, people were kind of like, hey, would you do our family photos? We'll give you money. And I was like, yeah, ok, and I've always been in the public sector as far as work wise, and so I've never, never, done business stuff before. I was very hesitant about doing a business.
Speaker 3:My, my idea of photography, my purpose for for that was just catching, you know, my kids in action and throughout their lives growing up. For me, I've always been drawn to photography and portraits. Like I always loved going up, you know, in the attic in the brown paper bags and finding the old photos you know of you know, when my siblings and I were younger or my parents were younger and things like that, and I just loved, like just going through the piles of photos and stuff and I wanted my kids to have that. Of course, you know, things change and I realized when people started, you know offering to pay money. I could kind of expand what I was doing and I could upgrade in my equipment and so it kind of was something that was just a supplemental income to pay for itself About. It started getting more and more serious, you know, a couple of years into it, and started doing seniors and more families.
Speaker 3:Then I started doing, you know, headshots. I kind of went into everything. I know, everything I read and everything I you know, watched was, you know, fun niche and stick with that. That just wasn't me. It's still not me Like. I have a style I like, but whoever wants to, you know, kind of jump in that style with me. You know, whether it be families, seniors, sports, you know is what I got really into, not so much the action stuff but the portraits, the making. You know kids look, look badass and dark, moody, you know edgy stuff and yeah, that's kind of kind of where we are. And yeah, the funny thing about you know, when I found you, you know it wasn't that I was looking for a business coach. I wasn't looking, I wasn't thinking I was, I knew I wasn't doing everything right, but I didn't think I was doing really anything wrong. And then I started listening to your podcast and I was like holy crap, I could be making a lot more money, like there is a lot more opportunity out here.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And so I remember you know scheduling a call and getting on with you, and you were like yeah we can make you more money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay. So I think what's really unique and what's important to point out here is that you were working a full-time job. Yes, you were shooting around how many sessions a year while working your full-time job.
Speaker 3:About 120.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's a lot for most people right, most photographers don't shoot that much volume. So when you contacted me and you were like, hey, I have a real job, I'm also shooting 120 sessions a year, I was like, with the right tools here, if you can take what your clients are spending with you now and quadruple whatever that might be, that will be just next level for you, like that will change everything. So when you first contacted me, you were doing shoot and burn, giving all the digitals, correct.
Speaker 2:I was Yep and how much were you charging at that time?
Speaker 3:I would say by the time that we had connected, I think it was like $500 a session and it was. They got a lot for their money.
Speaker 2:Okay, so do you mind sharing what kind of your clients are spending now around DeVal?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I would say on average. We're looking at about like $1,800, $1,800 to $2,200 on average.
Speaker 2:So you effectively 4X'd about your client.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think there's still more growth there that's waiting to happen. I think you just need a bit of time cooking everything to get there.
Speaker 3:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:Which is really cool to think about. It's like you know, a year from now, you could be doubling that again, so I really love that. What was that transition like? Going from giving all the digitals to all of a sudden having to say to your clients you're not getting all the digitals anymore, you have to buy your portraits. What was that?
Speaker 3:It was a tough transition because you know, with those, you know, let's say, a hundred sessions. You know it was, I would say 80, 80 of those, 80% of those were repeat clients. You know that I'd worked with, you know, at least for two, three years, and so some of them, you know, some of them, we, we transitioned. You know where I, especially when I first started, I was like hey, can you go through this with me? I'm working on a new style. I'm working on, you know, a new structure, something that'll benefit everybody. Can you just kind of go through? You know a couple of the uh, this, uh, uh, ips. You know with me, you know, and they were great about it, and you know whether they bought because they were just helping me out or whether they liked the product. But once they got like the, the prints and the and the products and stuff, they were like holy crap, yeah, it's, it's different. Um, and it's funny. You know, I, I, what you see is what you get with me, right, I, I'm, I can bs all all you know, I, I, what you see is what you get with me, right, I, I, I'm, I can BS all all you know. Um, you know about, about anything that we and I can talk, and I can make small talk, but when I'm selling something or when I'm providing something, like it has to be real, uh. And so you know the big thing was.
Speaker 3:I remember, you know, uh, you know, going through your courses and you know the five steps to wall art and the different vendors and I remember, like you know, four or five different vendors that I would order just some samples from, and you know, samples for me are just things I can put on my wall. And then once I like narrowed down where I wanted and I printed one of my first you know big metal print which was like a 30 by 40 for a client and it showed up. And of course I still have everything sent to me because I have a tendency to sometimes put an order in wrong. So I just I like to double check still, but with this vendor they had to come to me anyway. There was no drop shipping.
Speaker 3:And I opened it up and I looked at it. I was like holy crap, like this is, this is very different. It's one of those I was like wow, I didn't realize, like I was that good, you know. And and my clients were blown away by it. They loved it. They ended up ordering like three more pieces and yeah, like, and so it's something that I had to see and I had to believe that it was a difference maker and I and I go photos from years ago and being able to touch it and being able to, you know, pass it on and things like that, and so I really where I from before my shoot and burn was not necessarily because I thought digitals were better, it's just because I didn't want to deal with, you know, deal with clients and ordering prints. And you know, you know, deal with clients and ordering prints and you know the uh, marking up and things like that. And I just wanted to avoid that.
Speaker 3:Um, and the time it takes, and it is time, you know. So you know when you would, when you say, you know we go through a process of how to, how do you price? You know your, your, your products, things like that. Time is a big factor in that. You know, um, it's not just, you know, take, take your number and times it by two or times it by three or whatever. It's well, no, like, how much, how many, how many, how much FaceTime do I have? You know where. You know we're doing the reveals, or you know we're doing a follow-up reveal or something like that. You know all that. All that plays a part.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think that's a big hesitation for a lot of people. They're like I am happy making my 500 bucks, giving them their digitals and being done with my clients. I don't have the time to do image reveals, I don't have the time to deal with wall art. What would you say to them in response to that? Like, is that worth it? And really like, with how much more time versus how much more money you're making. Like, how does that all play out now in your life and in your business?
Speaker 3:Yeah, no, absolutely. The time factor is huge, but you have to find the value in the time. I love doing the reveals because it ends up being a game for me. Once we go through a bunch of images, I can already predict whether they're going to like the next image or not. Or, or you know they, they completely, you know, go opposite of what they've already been doing and it's just fun, like you know, some clients like uh, look away shots, you know where. They're not looking at the camera, they're looking off, or they're more in between, uh, pose shots. Those are the ones I absolutely love and some clients don't love them at all.
Speaker 3:So you know the reveals are important because it's you know, I don't know I don't want to deliver.
Speaker 3:You know half the a bunch of photos and half them you're not going to like anyway. You know I'm not going to take my time to edit and and you know you talk about time, right, like all the time that we take to get their favorites and stuff or our favorites, which aren't going to be theirs, but knowing, knowing that what I create gets put on a wall or in an album and it's going to be there on their wall a long time like that's, that's worth, it's worth it, it's worth the time, and it's, and it's and it's and it's worth the money. And it doesn't always work out that way either. Like you know, you go through a reveal and I've walked away with people, you know, just doing the minimum. You know, whatever their studio credit was, which I'm like that's okay, because every reveal like I learned something about myself and I learned some way to do it better. Yeah, regardless of how many I've done, you know, so far, yeah, so effectively.
Speaker 2:right, you can do a quarter of the sessions you were doing before. Right, you're spending an extra, maybe hour, two hours dealing with the client with the new system. But you're making four times the amount of money right so? It's like yes, there is more time spent, but there's a happier client, there's a better experience and there's more money in your pocket for that more time.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, if you want to look at flat out time, absolutely You're. It's whether you're spending that time talking with somebody and meeting them on their level, you know, and getting to know them and them getting to know you versus rapid shooting. You know, four nights a week and my seniors this year, like I, almost doubled my, uh, my senior sessions in within one year. Like you, typically I'll go up like $50, $100, you know, for the those, those seven years that I've been doing it, and then this year I I almost doubled. I went up by, you know, probably about eighty percent um and I had about, you know I lost about a third of of um. You know my total number, right, right, usually I'm around 45, 50.
Speaker 3:This year I think I was at like 35, which wasn't it's not a huge drop off by any means, but there was way more money there and I had more time, more nights to myself because I, you know, I'm like, like most of us, like I'll shoot just one session, you know, a day, cause I want that golden hour. You know, portrait lighting and, yeah, I mean it's, it's, I'm not doing four sessions, you know, a day and given, you know, the first couple of ones crappy lights and and and shooting until, uh, you know, there is no light, um, you know. So, yeah, it's, it's time, and it's time and it's and it's valuable time, because those clients, those 35 clients I worked with, are no doubt going to be either referrals or repeat clients, you know.
Speaker 2:How has your relationship with your clients changed? From shoot and burn you said like it was like quick, rapid, four sessions a week type thing, versus now where you have more time to focus on those clients. Have you noticed a difference in the relationships with them?
Speaker 3:I have and I always feel like I had a good relationship with clients, even up to the delivery. You know, you see this all the time, right? Photographers get annoyed when they deliver their digital gallery and they don't get a response. You know, they don't even get like, oh, this is amazing, you know. They just get nothing and a lot of times that was the end of my relationship with them, you know.
Speaker 3:So, to be able to continue the experience after the session and know that you're not just there to shoot their portraits but to help them design and help them, you know, let them pull back the curtain a little bit and let them see, you know the wizard. You know, as far as hey, this is what I'm looking for, and you narrowed down to these two or these three photos, Let me give you my opinion, you know, or they'll be like hey, what's your opinion? What do you think about this one? You know, and so it's. It's just a better experience for them. They're I'm more involved, they're more involved, you know, and they feel more comfortable with their selections. Because I got to tell you at least 75%, 75% of my shoot and burn clients never even downloaded their photos, let alone printed their photos.
Speaker 2:That's a very valuable point and I I see that because I give my clients digital files for social media. I agree, If I go look through my galleries, how many people actually download the digital files that they get with their prints? Half the people don't download them. No.
Speaker 3:Then that just shows you like. For me it was like, yeah, I was giving too much. You mentioned this yesterday in your, in your training, your training. But I always go back to that free sushi right, there's so much there or they feel like they've got so much for a little bit of money that it's not valuable to them. It's not as appealing.
Speaker 2:I have a fun question, as going through the image reel process and sitting down and helping your clients pick their favorite images changed the way you shoot your sessions 100%, Absolutely.
Speaker 3:I make sure that I shoot first of all, both in vertical and horizontal to avoid cropping and losing some detail. I shoot with the idea, with the picture of an album page in mind, and I shoot with the idea of where that image, or where that you know that portrait can hang Right. No, I 100% has changed the way I shoot, because it's not just what is, what does it look like, you know, through on the back of the screen, when can this be put Right? There's plenty of times, like during a session, where I'll, I'll shoot a set of images and I'll and I'll show the client. I'll be like you know, this would look amazing, as like a series of photos in an album Right, or a set of photos on the wall. I look back and I'm like, yeah, like that's a great, like planting a seed and and and you know, and that I'm really excited about it.
Speaker 2:Right, you can see it in your head. Yeah, okay. So on that note, then has the sales process surprised you, as you went through and learned the sales process and started to implement it. Is it what you thought it was going to be, or is it different than you expected?
Speaker 3:As far as you mean, like the sale, selling to the client.
Speaker 2:Like taking your client from the first point of contact all the way to the end. Did it happen the way you thought it would? Or, once you got in the program and started learning the whole process of how we get clients to buy, did anything surprise you there?
Speaker 3:No, a lot. Well, yes, a lot of it surprised me, because I am your typical consumer, right, and show me something, give me ads that pop up all the time, you know, and eventually they're, they're gonna get me right. And so, like a lot of the, a lot of the things I look at for my clients is how would I react to this and what would I say, you know? And so I'm very critical as far as like, how I, how I approach and how I, you know, plant those seeds. I don't want to seem fake and I want to be genuine. Um, and so learning that whole process was was mind-blowing to me, cause, like every episode, you know, or every piece I was watching from your thing, I was like, oh my God, that's me, that's how they got me, that's how, that's why I bought this, that's why I bought, you know, and you know, I came from imaging and I, you know, purchased something and I'm like God damn.
Speaker 2:It was that sales tactic that got me.
Speaker 3:But it was seeing it in action and seeing the behind the scenes, because that's how a lot of my photography skills work. I didn't do a whole lot of classes and I did some of the creative live stuff, but mostly it was. I loved when photographers would post behind the scenes stuff, because before the behind the scenes stuff I'm always sitting. I'm like, all right, where they put the light for that? Where was the light facing you know? Did they have, you know, a fill light? You know when they were outside or were they using a reflector? And so a lot of times it was me like, all right, I'll buy a reflector, all right, I'll buy a light and try this out. And then once that like that kind of the the rage of behind the scenes happened, I was like, oh, you say it's perfect. I'm like that's all, it was one light and it was right there, and it was, you know, and you're metering for the sky and I'm like, okay, but so you know, to go back to that, though, like the psychology of sales again, like I have to, I have to be 100% bought into it in order for me to sell it. You know which kind of takes me back.
Speaker 3:People are like, oh, why'd you get into photography? I'm like, well, because I didn't want to pay somebody else to do it. It was something I love to do and I didn't, you know, for me. You know, I'm the kind of guy like I don't know if you can hear it outside right now, but I've've always mowed my own lawn and I've always chopped down trees, but it's, it's one of those. I always did it because I didn't want to pay somebody else to do it.
Speaker 3:Now it's well, my time is valuable and you know what it's actually cheaper for me to pay somebody versus the time it takes for me to do it. Or to, you know, find my kids after they run off and have them help me and stuff. So it's just a lot, lot less of a headache. And so I wanted to. I want to provide a service. That's that's, you know, convenient for people. Yes, it's going to be expensive, but you know what it's going to be expensive. If you try to create these on your own, you're going to have to take time and learn and take time and purchase, you know, equipment, stuff like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. So what? Out of the process of transitioning to selling, was there anything that stood out to you that really, like, surprised you the most?
Speaker 3:Surprised me the most with the selling. It's a good question, I would. I would say, what I kind of expected and I and I think this was more of a self fulfilled prophecy was, I think when I first started doing it, people were hesitant to, you know, spend the money on the prints which I again like I didn't. Would I have done it? No, would I have paid that much money for it? No, and so it was kind of like you know how can I expect them to? And then when they what was surprising is when they did and when I would. What was great is when I actually had samples, just prints that I would, I would do of clients or of my family and have them in studio, because I have a small studio in the back part of my house here, which is the old. This room that you see here is actually on paper as the master suite.
Speaker 2:Your business took over your master suite.
Speaker 3:It was never the master suite. So when we moved in full disclosure I didn't kick my wife out of the room and move all the stuff out, no, it's like a big part of the house, that's like two rooms and we used it as the kids' playroom. When we moved in here, our kids were younger, my wife wanted all the bedrooms on the second floor, so there was three bedrooms upstairs, so everybody's upstairs, and so once I kind of changed this all up and everything, I was, you know, I'm like this is cool, like I can actually shoot some stuff in here, I can do my portrait stuff that I love, all my artificial light Plus I can bring clients in. Now, and I think that was that was. I think the aha moment for me was when I could actually have them here.
Speaker 3:You know, as I'm taking pictures of their kid, they're looking around at the photos on the wall, the different you know stuff I have, you know, deliberately around at the photos on the wall, the different stuff I have deliberately laid out so they can see what a fine art mat finish mounted looks like and feels like, versus me just telling them this is what I do when you have the floppy glossy paper sitting there versus this beautiful fine art mat paper. It's different. It different and that's that's what kind of I think that's that's. The biggest thing that surprised me was the ability to for them to see it, to then buy into it more, which again go back to me and like that's 100 what I would do, like I need to see stuff, for me to purchase something. It's typically I researched it a lot and looked at the competitors and seen like I'm not one to rent and then buy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I like to use the old, you know the whole free returns after you know we're in 30 days. But no, I like to have it and play with it and then decide.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like you shared something important there, which was that in the beginning you didn't really you were hesitant because you weren't sure if anybody would spend the money right, and so I think you had this hesitation going into it with those first several clients that you were like, okay, I know there's a better way, I believe in this because I think it's valuable, but I don't know if I would do it, and so it took that like actually just doing it to change your mindset.
Speaker 2:First, because the clients can totally tell when we're doing something and we have the hesitation in the back of our mind, it will kick us in the butt time and time again, because our clients feel it, they see it, they're like this guy's trying to sell me something that he doesn't even act like he's excited about. Why am I going to buy it from him? And I think that is so, so important to acknowledge and just to point out that if anyone's dealing with that, you have to do that, work yourself on your brain and on your mindset, to try so hard, going into those first several reveals to be like my clients are going to love this, they're going to want to buy it. My clients are going to love it. They're going to buy it Over and over and over again in your head. And psych yourself out of that weird, funky mentality, because it is the easiest way to sabotage yourself.
Speaker 3:Going into the world and that's you know. Don't sell something that you know you wouldn't want and you know that you wouldn't want to hang in your house or or or have on display or something like that. You know it's. I'm only selling products that I want to, that I would put in, you know, in my home. You know which. I know that that's definitely narrows it down, but it makes it a lot easier to sell and it makes it more genuine. Which people want to buy from people. You know they, they, they want to buy because they know that, um, you know you're using what's hanging up in their house is going to be what's hanging up in your house. Right, you know you go to your mechanic like, well, what kind of car do you drive? You know, you know that kind of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. Okay, so tell me this what is your favorite thing to personally sell Like?
Speaker 3:what is your favorite thing that, when a client buys it, you're like yes, I would say an album, and it's funny because it's the last album I sold. I designed the whole thing and then the client wanted to go through it with me and like redesign it and I kind of we did a reveal and this was somebody who was an over lover and had way too many images, and so I legit like just built the album with you know, a hundred images in it, and I told her I go, listen, it's too big, I go, but I want you to see what it looks like. You know, because I they could get the uh, the proof, you know, on uh online and I'm like I just want you to go through and I want you to eliminate right, there's going to be a couple of things that, a couple of pictures that look the same. You know, that are uh, I don't, you couldn't narrow it down, but maybe if you have an album you can see what you know what they look like and uh. So when we met again, she really wanted to go through and design together and it was like another like two hours together, which, again, like I didn't have a problem with because I knew whatever she was going to get, it was what she and I built together. You know it wasn't going to be a. Yeah, I don't know why you chose this picture, I don't know why this one really didn't work here.
Speaker 3:And you know well, when it comes to the albums it's they're getting a whole lot of eight by tens, five by sevens, you know, in one place on beautiful, in a beautiful, you know compact, big album. So the price point price point's high but the value is higher and then the time that goes into it is is is super, super valuable and we and again it's another opportunity to just keep building connections. You know this person's already referred me to three other clients, you know. So it pays dividends, you know, and not for the purpose of getting those, you know dividends. But if you go into it looking at like, oh well, if I'm really nice to her, maybe I'll get more, no, you gotta be, it's gotta be what you like to do. If you're not a people person, then you know, if you're the introvert behind the camera that doesn't like to deal with clients, then good luck.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny. We had this conversation when I was doing Bethany's podcast interview. We talked a little bit about introvert thing. Like I actually consider myself an introvert. Bethany was sharing that she considers herself an introvert. So if I walk into a big room full of people, I kind of like freak out and I'm like I don't know what to do and I'm like I don't know what to do. I don't know who to talk to, but one-on-one I'm good. So I would say don't use your introvertedness as an excuse not to go talk to people, because even introverts are normally okay one-on-one right. It's the big group crowd situations that freak introverts out.
Speaker 2:And I think the other thing is that sometimes you have to learn tools to talk to people and to deal with people. To talk to people and to deal with people and that's something like even inside the coaching program like I'm always sharing. Like here's this way that you can say something to somebody that's going to get them to open up. Or here's this method you can use to ask that question that's going to make it sound easy. Here's this method to connect with a stranger in public right, and taking those tools and that knowledge on how to communicate and how to talk to people and then also making it your own, because if I teach Rob some way to ask a question, rob's going to ask the question differently than I am and differently than Corey or Austin or someone else, and so understanding I think the reason and the logic behind the things we do in our business is so valuable. And then taking those things and making them your own, because Rob and I speak very differently but Rob and I now use the same kind of framework to have conversations but the conversations flow slightly differently, but the logic and the reason behind those conversations we have all point to the end result. So I think that's really, really important to remember.
Speaker 2:What would you say, rob? The journey of like going through and figuring out how to like figure out those scripts of what to say and when to say them to clients, or figuring out how to navigate that. All of the steps along the way and me saying, like here's the purpose of it. Now you have to figure out how to make it work for you. What was that like for you?
Speaker 3:It was tough because initially it was. I felt like I was even, you know as well as I knew it, I was still scripted and for me, I'm the most unscripted person you'll ever meet. You know, I'm a teacher as well. That's my, my full-time career and even that, like my lessons, I know the objective of what I, you know what I want to get across, how it's going to be delivered. I don't know until I get feedback from the students.
Speaker 3:Right, and it's a similar thing with with clients is I don't, I'm not going to sit here and if I realize that I had a body experience and I sit and look at myself and I'm like, dude, you're talking too much, Like I have to stop and ask a question, like I can't stand hearing myself talk for for, you know, an extended period of time, you know, and I cause I again, when somebody does that to me and I'm just like sitting there, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, I don't hear anything. You know, if you're, if I'm not engaged in it, if I'm not contributing, like I'm, I'm not listening, you know. And so I think the big thing about you know, having a script, you know and I use that term lightly is is you have to. You can't disregard your own personality, you know, and your ability to talk to people.
Speaker 3:You, you have to not only give information, but you have to get information. You have to, as I said, you have to interview them, you know. You have to ask them questions, what they want. Let them start talking, you know. Let them let them kind of tell you and then, depending on what they say, is is when you guide that conversation. It's not easy and when I started doing it, you know where it was more like a script and I wanted to get through it. I struggled and I abandoned it very quickly because I'm one of those like I'm not going to stick with something that I feel is not working. Like I'm not.
Speaker 3:I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2:And I think that happens, like I think people so. In my journey, whenever I was learning how to like have these conversations with clients, I went through so many courses or had coaches that would just pick here's the script you need to use, here's the price list you need to use, and I would use it for a while and then I would be like wait hold on what's happening. I'm reading off of a piece of paper, talking to somebody, and then I started to wonder like okay, I've noticed there's these trends, there's these things that people are telling me I need to say or do. But why are they telling me to do these things? Why are they telling me to ask these stupid questions that seem just like cut and paste the same bull crap but doesn't sound like me? Why are they telling me to do these things? And then I started looking at those things and realizing there was a purpose behind why they were doing that and saying, okay, now I need to figure out how to turn this into a real conversation, and now I need to figure out how to turn this next part into a real conversation on this and this, on a real conversation.
Speaker 2:And I think when you're learning to have those conversations you kind of feel like and it depends on your personality. I see some people that they're like they learn the stuff, they make their script and they're like trying to stick to it, because they're like I have to do the thing and I have to follow the steps. I have to be a good student. And then you have to realize that it's not just a script, it's a deeper, deeper understanding of the conversation that's happening and learn how to flow through that naturally, because then it feels organic and it feels like a real conversation with a friend and not just the telemarketer that's sitting there reading the phone script Right.
Speaker 3:And I think that's really important.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and and teaching is the same thing. There's I work with people that here's the lesson plan. They have to get through it in 45 minutes and, regardless of what any kid says or does, like, they're going to say what they need to say and they're going to have them do the work that they need to work, do the whatever work they have to do, and I've never been able to do that. It's always I teach in a conversation. You know format, you know I need engagement. I need to know that people aren't bored with me. I need to know that my message is getting across and whether that's in the classroom or whether that's, you know, educating on, you know what the experience working with me is like. They're equally important.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I have a side note here, a question, I guess. I always say that, like most of our job is really, we're educating our clients throughout our process, and I always like to say, when you educate someone on something, you have to say the same thing a lot of different ways and in a lot of different styles, because some people are auditory learners, some people learn by seeing the words, some people learn by answering questions about it. Right? So the process and the way I always think about it is my process with my client. I'm teaching them and educating them along the way as we go, so that way, by the time we get to the image reveal, they know what it is they want to get, they know the answer to the question and they're able to make an educated decision on that topic. So, as a teacher, do you see kind of the similarities between the process with their clients? Now, now that I don't know if you've ever thought about it like that, but do you see similarities there?
Speaker 3:Absolutely. I mean, yes, like so, you know, in the classroom we have every. Every kid is a different type of learner, right, you know, you have your kinesthetics, you have your, you know your tactile, your auditory, your visual right, and so our lessons have to have to encompass all of those learning styles. And, and it's the same thing, like you said, we're we're educating our clients and so, yeah, I have to deliver them information in different ways. It's like when you get a, you know, a lead form, do you text, do you email, do you call? Right, you know, yeah, I might email you and text you to let you know that I'm going to call, because you know you may. Number one I'm not. I'm a very tactile person, Hence the whole. I have to show you what these products look like no-transcript.
Speaker 2:I'm just so bad I cannot write. My A's mom and he was just like I'm a terrible at writing my letters, and I looked at him and was like, well, you know, once upon a time I was really bad at writing my letters too, but I worked on it and I got better and now I don't even have to think about it and it seems so simple and basic. But everything we've ever done in our life was hard until we did it over and over and over again. But we get to choose whether we're the four-year-old sitting on the ground throwing a fit because it's hard or if we're going to put on our big kid panties and do it again, over and over and over again. So I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:I think there's this really bad belief in the photography industry that you can just send a bunch of emails to your clients and send them a bunch of prep guides to read and that they're going to understand and know what to expect.
Speaker 2:And I think that that is one of the worst things that happened to me in the early years of my business was just relying and depending on the fact that clients were going to actually read the information and retain that information right. So that's whenever I really started having conversations with people and that's when I started asking questions of my clients, both verbally and written, on a form that they would fill out right. And so I have also learned things like sometimes I write things in a paragraph form One time I say it, the next time I write it I will list it in bullet points and I will say the same thing two different ways, because some people will never read the bullet points and some people will never read the paragraphs. So it's about over-educating our clients in this way that everybody learns in their certain way, and hopefully we've kind of touched on all those points. So I really think that's an important thing to point out here especially.
Speaker 3:Absolutely. It's with anything. You know, whatever you put out there and this goes on so many different levels you put something out there once and we have this assumption that it's 100% it's going to be retained by the recipient and it's not. I'll go back to the classroom again. I understand that, whatever I'm talking about, that specific day, I'm hoping 50% of them catch on to it. I'm not even saying 50% of them retain everything. I just want to spark something and for them to be able to come back to that if they need to. And the next day I hope I hit another 20%, another 20% the next day.
Speaker 3:The worst thing we can do is assume that everybody is going to get our message in the exact same way, because it's just not going to happen. That idea that we put something on social media, we do a post and we think that great, everybody saw that. All 3,000, 5,000, 10,000 followers saw that one. So I shouldn't post that again or I shouldn't reference that again. No, you have to do it in a different way. Whether you do it in a reel or whether you do it in a carousel or something else. It's got to be repetitive, but in different formats. I think that's a big downfall of a lot of people is they think you know, well, I emailed, you know like, yeah, man, I get a lot of emails, shoot me a text, you know, call me, you know, send me a message on, like give me a lot of different ways that I can't avoid you.
Speaker 2:Like give me a lot of different ways that I can't avoid you. Okay, so I have a question In the classroom teaching, is there like a magic number that y'all say like this is how many times the average student has to like hear something or interact with a specific thing to actually learn it? Like, is there a magic number there that they use?
Speaker 3:Magic number, not so much. But they have, like different levels of you know, depending on the curriculum or depending on the program. You know, sometimes it's a hey, this is just an introductory thing. Then you're going to say, see it again in this unit, and then they're going to expect them to know it by this unit. Unfortunately, in our education system they assume two or three times and they should have it. That's not how it works.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so, like I say, and from the marketing world, they say in order to buy something you have to be see it eight times. So I think like that means their awareness takes at least eight times of hearing something or seeing something. And because we're so constantly bombarded, I think the number is really a lot higher now. So I say like 15 times. If we talk about it or share about it 15 times, then we should be guaranteed that our clients know what to expect. If we only do it eight times, we're probably going to end up with a client here and there. That's like what, what's happening? I didn't read any of that stuff, I didn't pay any attention to that. I just put a random letter in that form. So I think you have to kind of over-educate sometimes and feel like you're overdoing it with your clients a lot of times.
Speaker 3:Well, right, and I think too it's. You know the style guides and the other thing you're talking about before it. They're not bad things. I don't think we abandon those, it's just know that. That's just one touchpoint, right, that's just one thing. And go back and reference it, you know, in another thing, you know, so they can try to connect and say, oh wait, I did get that email. Let me look back on that. You know I've done that plenty of times with your stuff, like just looking for the Zoom links. I'll do that. I'm like I know she sent something out like three times.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I mean that's the truth of the life we live in and the world we live in. Okay, so tell everyone kind of what it was like as you were going through our program like Master your Mind and Money. So you walk through courses, you have group calls, you have one-on-one support. What was that journey like for you, going through the process, and how would you explain it to somebody who's like? What is it even like to be in Corinda's circle and to work with Corinda?
Speaker 3:It's, it's a lot. Number one like it's it's a lot, like there's a lot of material out there and it's easy to get overwhelmed. I would say you organized it very well and you were very specific as to like, don't jump around. You know, start here. You know, and, and I would say the like the group calls and especially the one-on-ones, like that was, you know, from a teacher student perspective. Like I wanted to make sure I was prepared, right, I wanted to make sure I was, you know, not not so much of like getting a bad grade, but man, I just I just spent some money. Like I want to make sure I'm getting what I, you know what I paid for. Like I want to make sure I'm using it, which you know, how many times have we subscribed to something you know and it's just a website of you know videos and stuff like that, and you look at it once or twice and you don't go back to it. I think you know you, you have a good accountability system. You know that in place and it really helps you going forward.
Speaker 3:And, you know, coming to those one-on-ones or those group meetings, you know, with questions ahead of time, even if you were, you know we were to ask them in the Facebook group or or something else. You know, just seeing somebody else's response from there, you know, trigger something. You know it's not about, it's not about getting all the answers, you know, it's about kind of just lighting that fire in a sometimes the same direction, sometimes a different direction, to get you get your mind thinking differently. And you know, get you get your mind thinking differently. And you know the big thing that you did, I mean, and you've, I've completely gone into the whole mindset thing and you said you just talked about before, about Kai, and you know how I'm terrible at this the negative self-talk, like we don't even. How do we learn that? Right, how do we learn that? You know, when we try something and it's hard, we get down on ourselves, right, like thinking more about it's just, it's an opportunity, and I'm not expecting the four-year-old to do that, but I'm saying for us, you know, when we lose a client, or when we or lose a lead and we're, you know we don't have a, the client doesn't come back, or something like that.
Speaker 3:You know, instead of you know, thinking negative oh I screwed up, I screwed up, I screwed up, you know it's or even putting the blame on them, like, well, you know that's, you know they're whatever. You know, looking inward and seeing all right, what could I have done differently? What? What did I say? What did I? What did I not pick up on, you know? Or did it just flat out, which I've become very good at.
Speaker 3:It's just not my client right, like and and that's that's probably the been the biggest shift from my first, you know, five years in business, thinking that I have to be everybody's photographer. I want to be everybody's photographer, I want to be the most popular photographer around, like I want to do. Yeah, I'll do that, I'll do that, I'll do that. Right To no, I'm not. I don't think we're a good fit, you know. No, you know I'm not. I haven't done that before and I'm not really doesn't really interest me, you know or no, that's great. That so-and-so down, you know, in the next town, will do it for $300 cheaper. I'm like then work with them, you know, being able to let go and being able to understand that you know you're not for everybody and everybody's not for you. That was a huge, huge takeaway from the work we did together.
Speaker 2:It's amazing. It's so interesting to hear, when I ask people this question, to hear how different everyone's perspectives on this are. Like what their big thing that they really say like this is the one thing that I grasp onto that helped change the way I looked at my business. Okay, so I have a question. I love asking this how much of the course videos did you actually watch? Did you watch most of them or did you skip around a lot? Did you do the thing I told you not to do and you did actually skip around?
Speaker 3:So I stayed on track right.
Speaker 2:You're the A plus student, Rob. That's why.
Speaker 3:No, no, no. Well, I wasn't finished, I stayed on track. And then I think, once the videos got like 60 minutes and like 75 minutes, the marketing videos.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think it was the marketing that I stopped and I was just relying more on the group chats and I was realizing I was definitely doing more and I had more like in the moment questions and things like that. I think not that your content wasn't wasn't good, it was just I was. I feel like I just needed something else at that point and I just and it. Once you fall out of it, it's hard to like jump back in.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's funny.
Speaker 2:I have people sometimes that will come through the program and they like barely watch any videos but they show up to every group call and they ask questions and they're always doing their one-on-ones and they're just like, and they get so much out of it without even watching the stuff.
Speaker 2:And then I have other people that are like they're like dedicated, like they have a schedule of how they're going to attack everything and they get it done and they will sit and watch those videos like they're in a college lecture. So it's always fun to hear different perspectives from people of like you can show up to the calls and you can get as much out and you can just watch the course. I have some people that just watch the courses and hardly ever show up to the group calls, and so I think it's really interesting. But I would say you were definitely like a show up and listen on the group calls kind of person that you were always there, like paying attention to what was happening and what other people were asking, and I feel like we talked a lot about the marketing stuff on the group calls anyway, organically.
Speaker 3:So no, I agree. And marketing, I feel like that's one of the things that changes so rapidly.
Speaker 2:It does.
Speaker 3:I'll go back to you, like your marketing stuff, which I definitely remember the first, you know couple of videos of. You know, marketing is about educating and I actually brought that into my marketing class, you know, this semester. You know it's it's not about selling something, it's about educating people and it's about, you know, making them aware that they want what you have. You know, and no, I think, going through it, I started out and this is kind of my MO. I started out very structured, right, I was, I was taking notes, I was up every morning at three, 30 in the morning doing the videos before work, you know, and it was awesome. Of course, I was in bed by like eight of the night before. But, um, and then, as I got into it and you know I don't like to wait and implement like I like to like I said, uh, fly the plane as I'm building it.
Speaker 3:Um, you know, make my mistakes and and figure things out. Uh, you know I my mistakes and figure things out. You know, I told you, you know, last summer, when I did my first like in-person event at the Cape Cod, where I was like I did this, this, this, and I'm like I know those are all the wrong things to do, but I had to understand why I shouldn't have done that. And I 100% understand. Now, like like, why?
Speaker 3:And just seeing you at, like imaging and the way that you were, you know, um, gathering, lead, uh, information and stuff like that, I'm like, oh, that's what that looks like. Or you know, if those are the little things like I pick up on, um, you know that where, where you get that through conversation, but so much is experience. Um, you know, and it's just whether, whether you want for me, like I'm one of those like I great, you know it didn't work out this time and I don't have another opportunity for another month. I'm like, all right, I've got other stuff I'm doing and you know I don't need to get it right the first time and I think that's a huge, I think that's a whole nother podcast, but, um, no, I think that's that's important, because so many times and I always say this like this is how I teach people.
Speaker 2:I say here's all the mistakes I've made, here's the way I've screwed it up, here's the way I think works the best. And here's why you might go try these other ways that I tried and you might have to try them and realize that they are or are not for you. But you need to be a big enough person to realize, when you try something, if I warn you, hey, there's this problem with this thing that I did. If you go do it and you see the same problem for yourself, then it's time to change. And that is really freaking valuable.
Speaker 2:And that's how you learn the best and that's how, honestly, the people that I see make the biggest strides in their business are the people who are willing to build the plane as it's going right. They're willing to try it, be like oh well, crap, that didn't work. I'm going to adjust that and try it a different way. Ooh, that worked a little bit better, but can I make it even better? And I think that's the difference in people who make big things out of their business and the people that just sit around listening to every podcast, buying every course, and they never do anything because they're waiting for the plane to be perfect before they take off. And you're never going to know if the plane is working until you're taking off. Right, you just have to sometimes trust that. What's the worst that can happen if I fail?
Speaker 2:What's the worst that can happen, right and you're not doing open heart surgery, you're a photographer. The worst that can happen is if you're a photographer is like you missed the first kiss or your entire memory card is corrupted from a wedding, like that's worst case scenario. Okay, that might feel life or death, but everything else is fixable. Everything else you can make right for a client. There's really not a whole lot of things that we can't make right. If we mess them up or if we crash the plane, we're people and we have to trust that people are going to know we're people. So give yourself permission anyone who's listening to this to just do the thing and be okay with the fact that you might crash and you're going to be able to pick yourself up and go again.
Speaker 3:Well, that's super important because you know what Best case scenario is, you get some great stories out of it, right? I had set out on this table at this baseball game because I was sponsoring the team for the Cape Cod Baseball League and I had set up like hats and shirts and stuff. You know that I was selling on there and I had, you know, pamphlets and this and that and I had to go out and like, go with my my little buddy and he had to throw out the first pitch, because I was supposed to throw out the first pitch because it was like my game. I'm like there's no way I'm throwing out a pitch in front of all these people and you know, these potential major league, uh, players, you know and so my my little buddy, I took him out there and he did.
Speaker 3:I came back and I'm like missing like five hats, you know like. I had like eight of them out there and like more than half of them were gone. I'm like what the heck happened? Well, somebody just came and thought they were free, you know like, and just took them and walked away and I hunted them down later and got my hatchback and it's just like. You know what it's, it's it's good stories, it's, it's great. You know, nobody likes a story about how the hero was perfect from the start. You know it's, it's. You gotta fall, you gotta, you gotta get up and gotta keep going, figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what would you say to someone who's thinking about getting support in their business or even joining our coaching program that we have?
Speaker 3:Do it, absolutely do it, because the worst thing, the worst thing you could do in a business think that you know everything and think that, nope, everything's fine right now, even if you go through it and you're like you know what, yeah, this didn't really help me, or, or I don't agree with this, or something else. It's it's the cost of tuition, right. Like it's not cost of tuition, right. Like it's not just a go, go along with something that you're guaranteed is going to work, but go, go, try something out that you realize. Hey, you know what. I'm not going to do that again, yeah.
Speaker 3:But when it comes to like coaching, especially like working with you, I don't mean to like puff you up and but it should, but you're there for the conversations. Like you're it's not a call. When we're doing the one-on-ones with you or doing any of the other group things, it's not just you preaching the entire time, it's it's you're taking input in your problem solving and you're hey, don't do this, but hey, try this or this. You know there's plenty of times that I've, you know, come on the calls and you were like, yeah, well, why do you think that didn't work? Or why what would you differently? Or let's try this, especially in a niche that's different from your own. The building blocks of business and communication are the same whether you're dealing with horses or whether you're dealing with little league athletes, so it's a different you're going to get or whether you're dealing with you know little league athletes, yeah, so it's a different.
Speaker 3:You're going to get perspective. You're going to get perspective, and perspective is always a great thing Seeing somebody else's perspective, just knowing that you don't know it all and that you're just willing to get a different perspective.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I think, like what you were doing with your business was different than what a lot of the other people were doing in their businesses Whenever you joined. Like you were doing some volume stuff, you were doing portraits, you were trying to find this style that you wanted to do. You were unsure how that was going to work. Like there were a lot of things in play and you know, I think some of it was just trial and error and figuring out where your sweet spot was and figuring out how it fit into business, but also how it fit into your life right, because your life in having a job and having a family and having kids to have stuff going on and all this stuff like figuring out how to navigate, fitting it all together and making it work for you.
Speaker 2:And I feel like you've done such a good job, finding a good place now and with everything, like your life right now, of how everything has transformed since we met and since we started working together, which makes me so happy to see how this has evolved and all of this good stuff. So I really love that about this whole journey and it's always fun watching you and I love watching you show up on social media because I feel like you do such a good job at putting your face out there and talking and just doing the thing. If anyone wants to follow you on social media so they can see these amazing videos that you sometimes post, how can they follow you or how can they find you online?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so it's Rob Faber Photography, you know, or Rob Faber Photos. I feel like it's different on, like everything, and I've changed it a couple of times. You just search up Rob Faber and you'll find me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you had a couple of brand iterations there.
Speaker 3:I did and that was like again, all part of the brain, I wasn't. You just can't be afraid to be like, yeah, this isn't working right now. This doesn't work for me, and you know what it is what it is.
Speaker 2:I love that. Well, it was so good having you on here. I have one final question. Okay, Okay, if you could go back in time and give yourself, when you were starting your business, one 60 second piece of advice, what would you go back and tell yourself Holy crap, 60 seconds, rob, I'm going to time you here.
Speaker 3:All right, don't try to be everybody's photographer. That's, I think, the big thing that I've learned is that you have to follow your passion, you have to do what you love to do, try everything and then whittle it down, but don't take the nose personally, you know. Don't take the negative feedback personally, you know you and that's so much easier said than done, but you know you can't please everybody and just know that. You know when a push comes to shove it's just not your client, it's not a right fit for you I love that.
Speaker 2:that's a good piece of advice, I think, for people who are starting out well. So much for joining us, rob. Hopefully some of y'all listening to this have gotten some golden nugget from our conversation, or now you don't feel as alone with where you're on your journey. Feel free to reach out to me, ask questions, reach out to Rob. If there's something that really resonated with you, tell him what it was, thank him for being here and I will see y'all next week at Master your Mind Money and don't forget to join our free Facebook group Photography Business Tune-Up with Corinda Kay. Thanks again and I'll see you next time.